Interview with Bidzina Ivanishvili

Journalist Ia Antadze disseminated interview with Bidzina Ivanishvili. Humanrights.ge presents the part of the interview which concerns the problems of democracy, human rights and violations of his rights.

- Mr. Bidzina, the public sees what steps the government takes against you and against people who are related to you. What else do you expect from them?

- I think they already clearly showed what methods they will use. The father-in-law of my closest advisor and assistant – Irakli Gharibashvili was arrested – by using gun-planting method. Friend of my son, popular DJ was also arrested by using drug-planting method. Cash collecting car of Cartu Bank was detained. At 10:30 pm my security was asked to yield guns.

I will not exclude that the Office of Prosecutor closes Cartu Bank. The charity foundation might also be closed. The cars follow one of my son’s friend and his spouse. My relatives and friends from the bank might be arrested as well.

In a day and a half they showed their real face.

- What would you say about the remark about your deportation?

- This government knows nothing about management. There are different bodies, they give out salaries, but only three men make decision in the cabinet. Three men want to govern the state. Even a small factory cannot be governed like that. If they had divided different functions among the Ministries, they would not have committed such ignorance. If they had something against me, everything is clear about my spouse’s citizenship.

One MP reminded us about 90 days and deportation. They don’t even know that the EU citizens have right to stay in Georgia for a year without the visa. The tragedy is that there is no smart person in their team who can analyze the situation. I would not exclude that they state that I am dangerous for state and deport me. But this will not change anything. It will just deteriorate their situation.

They want to cover the whole country in the black curtain; to intimidate everybody who can see things and deceive others by propaganda. I can expect anything from them. I do not exclude that they shoot me. I realize this and am ready.

I really don’t like their wrong decisions and try my best to hinder the process of “Gaddafization.” My main goal is to somehow stop them, somehow return them to the legal frames. I will do everything to decrease the internal temperature so we avoid the conflict. I am very afraid of street actions because that is what they want. We should not play their game. We should somehow reach the elections.

- Businessman takes the decision which he thinks is the best and risks for private welfare. Politician has to consult decisions with others and the state welfare depends on his risks. If the government does what it wants, that means that the state is authoritarian. What business experience would be useful for you in politics and how ready are you for compromises and agreements?

- In reality there is a lot in common and few differences. In my companies where 100 000 people worked, 10-12 people made decision together. I did not wish to work with people who could not criticize me. It is impossible to achieve success if you are dictating everybody – like our government does.

People who achieve success request maximal criticism so fewer mistakes are made. If you want to achieve success you should definitely rely on liberalism and democracy.

Businessman who does not manage to govern democratically, listen to his opponents and create team where conflicting opinions are expressed freely before making decision, will not be able to achieve success. This is what happened when the default took place and the bank was in severe state. Nobody left jobs. For months people worked without salaries.

Now let us compare a politician and businessman. What is democracy? It is when people make decisions. Businessman cannot achieve success if he/she is not a liberal and governs as an authoritarian.

Politicians are no different from businessmen in terms of striving for success. Often they can be more aggressive. Businessman grows gradually and then creates his own action field. Politician enters the prepared field and starts using public good. Talented politician can – there are many examples of this – develop the state and maintain his post. Less talented ones and the ones without talent cannot manage to do both. They put their post in the first place and everything else comes afterwards. It depends how the public allows this development. In reality, there is not big different between the businessman and politician in terms of governing.

- They say that Mikheil Saakashvili created proficient, energetic government. For a while Georgian population has been hopeful towards this process. Then the government became unpopular and unacceptable. What do you think, what was the reason that trust towards government has turned into distrust?

- Proficient government?! I will disagree. Several projects have really been implemented. The reform took place in the police and we wiped the shame of bribe-taking in the higher institutional departments. I do not want to neglect the successes either. However, numerous mistakes were made in the education system. I am not going to go through them now. Unfortunately, the police lost the efficiency it had in the beginning – practically it turned into the machine of intimidation.

That is why I cannot agree that the government was proficient. The constant rotation of high officials looks like children playground. Proficient government would have had other results. The only proficient mechanism was collecting money in the budget that I helped with and that was never managed by Shevardnadze’s government.

State function is collecting taxes. Instead of transferring money to the budget, big amount was maintained in the tax and custom services. Thus, the state did not fulfill its function. At the initial state this was effective as the budget received its form. The investments were made, the constructions started. However, significant investments have never been made.

The fact that they managed to collect money is a plus. But it is unbelievable to see what is going on lately. The developments in the Ministry of Finances are singlehandedly unacceptable. What does the State budget look like?! The Ministry of Finances and the budget has turned into their own pocket. They are holding concerts, meaningless events. This is nonsense. Things like that do not happen for example in France which is rather successful state.

- Why do you think trust turned into distrust? Everybody went through the process of trust being turned into distrust? Was there no trust in the beginning?

- Yes, there was trust in the beginning. I too was in euphoria. I will tell you the reasons that gave rise to distrust for me and for people in separate. For me, the trust started to disappear when they started to show their real face; when they were destroying houses for unclear reasons, when they mocked dignified people and etc…

Yes, there was euphoria when the democratic government came in power. I had this mood as well. Let us recall the TV channel ninth which worked as a spare channel supporting democracy. The whole staff knew that we were to protect the free speech if something happened. When this government took over, I could not dare to let this TV continue functioning. I thought our dream came true and I did not want to be in the role of a spy. I gifted the TV channel to the government the part of which was given to Rustavi 2 and another part to the first channel supposedly.

Remember, they did not forgive people the street actions… Then the illegal destruction, deprivation of property and so on and so forth followed… People started to realize the truth before me.

They gradually showed their real face. They have always been this way. Unfortunately, I realized it late. I think that reason was that I was totally into my work, had my daily regime, was busy with family and did not meet with politicians.

In general, politics was not my interest. Information to me passed through Saakashvili himself or Merabishvili who Misha sent to me when I could not arrive. I knew almost nobody in the government.

However, I stood with them in the beginning with everything I could – advice, finances. I asked them to eradicate corruption and establish order and I would help with everything I could. When the public thought that government was financed by Soros, in reality, it was me.

As the time passed, I heard some criticism and did not like it but on November 7th was the tensest. I called Misha. He said he would give me all the material that Merabishvili would arrive and bring it. Imedi situated erupted meanwhile. I was very angry and called him. I categorically asked him stop it. He was saying that I did not know what was going on… that terrible things were going… that the state overthrow was planned… that he would explain later. On the second day I arrived and asked him what happned. He could not show me anything real. He was always telling me that he treasured our relationship. I was telling him that we were no longer talking about out relationship and asked to wiftly resign and the public would assess his actions and that he was unacceptable President for me. Next day he called me and said he was going to resign. Then I heard the West was also involved in this. I was happy he resigned. However, I felt certain responsibility. Since he asked me to help him with advice, I also got involved in the process. I started watching TV and realized what was going on. As it turne our Tbilisi residents hated him.

Two weeks before the elections I had realized that the public was so angry he would not receive votes. I told him that it seemed like he was not going to win. At first he would not acknowledge it, but a week before elections he confessed that the things were going bad. I realized what was going on but could not stop what was started and did not dare to leave the process. However, I shortened the contacts.

I was very ashamed of myself after all this. I felt bad that I did not have the right position on time. On the day of inauguration I called him and told him that we would say goodbye. He was astonished in that moment and asked – are you leaving me? Am I leaving you, what does it mean, you have a day of inauguration, it is not like you are participating in elections, - I said. That was it.

- What do you think; did the government lose trust because Mikheil Saakashvili had authoritarian power since 2004? National Movement constantly had a constitutional majorty and majority in all local election bodies; this gave opportunity to governmental party not to pay attention to anyone and make authoritarian decisions.

- I agree. When I say absolute majority, I mean constitutional majority 2/3 +1. The ideal Parliament for me is where there are three political parties and none has 50%. I do not think two-party Parliament is the best. It can be four, five and more, but I think three is the most effective.

When the political party is presented by several people in Parliament and does not have a team, cannot form the visions and influence processes. At this stage, I see the necessity of constitutiona majority because we would unable to make system changes by small team since our and Nationals’ visions are radically different. The first thing what we should do is improving Constitution.

- What would the good Constitution mean for you? What remarks do you have towards this Constitution?

- I can see their handwriting – they want to fit the Constitution to their interests and they do whatever they want with it… They want to stay in power forever. The good Constitution will not be the one that I will write, but the one that public agrees on. Also, we should develop a strategic development plan of our country: what to do in the West, in the East… This plan should be worked out by the team of professionals and be accessible for every member of society. I do have my own understanding, but I cannot decide it alone. The public should decide how they want to live.

- The syndrome of “absolute majority” was not successful for the history of independent Georgia. It is impossible to forget that the parties came in power with huge majority and big trust but with political cataclysms. You promise to Georgian population to come in power with absolute majority and carry out substantive reforms in two-three years. Can’t this majority become a danger for you on the one side and for population on the other side? Would not it be better to break this tamed circle and establish Parliament based on the balance of power? Or to create a law which will determine the upper threshold for the winner political party and force it to form a coalition?

- It is a very good question. This is exactly what I mean when I am talking about the constitutional changes. We should create Constitution which excludes risks. However, at this stage if we come with ideal balance – one third – nothing will change in the country. I plan substantive changes and then will leave government. I have not stated this up until now: I am going to move to the opposition side. When I said in my first letter that I was going to leave in two-three years this meant that I would be the first opponent of my government and will try my best to strengthen the opposition so it controls the government properly. I want to make this precedent.

- You made a very important statement just now. You would like to come in power with majority to create the Constitution and model of government which excludes one-party leadership and authoritarianism.

- Yes, the Constitution is very important. However, only Constitution cannot protect us from authoritarianism. The public should be ready as well. My utmost goal is to strengthen the public.

- Many are sure that you can draw enough voices to win the elections; also, many people state that without changing the election environment your participation will be meaningless – since the National Movement is still going to present the results it needs. How are you going to force government change election environment? Do you think it is possible to win the elections in these conditions? Are you going to form your own political team?

- I will definitely form a team. Obviously I will have to form a political party. There is a feeling that it is impossible but I am sure it is possible.

I think the government will obey the legitimate framework. I am not losing this hope. As for the election environment: for example, I am ready to personally finance the biometrical passports since the government stated that it does not have money. However, I consider that we can win the elections even in these conditions even if nothing changes.

It is dangerous if our results are close. Nationals will receive ten to twenty precents in reality. For US and Europe to consider these results legitimate, maximum they can do is to double this percent but nothing more. This is an extreme case.

- In 2003 Mikheil Saakashvili addressed the people gathered at the Freedom Square that if Shevardnadze goes against the will of people, he would receive Revolution. You stated that Saakashvili should be allowed to continue governing the state after the term of Presidency expires. If he still refuses to yield the government, will the word “Revolution” appea in your dictionary in this case?

- I really do not want to use this word. If I had to use this word, I will consider that my entrance in politics was wrong. However, I think that my entrance was timely and correct and we will manage to change the government without any Revolution. If Saakashvili manages to falsifly elections using different mechanisms, we can prove his illegitimacy. He will not be able to take over with falsified elections. I do not want to hear the word “Revolution,” neither the word “street.” We should make a precedent of changing government through the means of elections. This will be one of the biggest successes.

- Many were surprised by the offer of cooperation to Vano Merabishvili, who is considered a spine of government. How can Merabishvili – or other people responsible for political decisions – be useful and acceptable forthe society which expects the substantive change of current system?

- Reuters asked me such question, whether I see Merabishvili’s place in government. Of course not. Of course I did not mean that when I addressed Merabishvili. There is no thought of including the main figures of current government in new government. They contributed a big share in the current situation. The essence of my address to Merabishvili was that if they act correctly and obey the law till the elections – the big hope that I have – they will be enabled to at least form a political party, or pursue business or think of something else. However, they have no place in our government.

- Soon you will get acquainted with the Georgian judiciary and will have a chance to prove that you are the citizen of the country where you were born and raised… You stated that one of your priorities is independent judiciary. In the beginning Mikheil Saakashvili was the author of the reform of judiciary. What would you suggest – is there any mechanism for the guarantee of independence of judiciary?

- I do not have the recipe, but I have a principal position that the judiciary should be independent. There are many qualified lawyers in Georgia. I already met with some of them. I will not let myself decide what mechanisms should be used to ensure the independence of judiciary. I will collect the specialists and in the conditions of political will they will make decisions about these mechanisms. I do not have the knowledge of it, but I know how to ask the educated ones and receive the best result.

- The case of illegal prisoners is very sensitive in Georgia. How can the legal and illegal prisoners be distinguished? Shall the current court reconsider their cases? Or shall they wait for the formation of new court? Or, maybe a special commission should be made for making swift and just decision?

- This is a very hard question. I do not have the answer ready as this issue belongs to the competence of specialists. They should work out the procedures. I understand that this is a significant case and have thought a lot about this. I will create the conditions where the specialists can make just decisions. The public is in severe state. But we should not add on mistakes. I understand the terrible situation in this sphere. Big part of society serves the conditional sentence. This is one of the reasons of poverty rise. People sell out their houses to free their family members. People don’t have money for medicines. Unimaginabile poverty prevails. They sell out everything and stay on the streets with debts.

- Numerous citizens gifted their property to the state due to different kinds of pressure. Shall they hope to return their property back?

- We cannot do this immediately. But how can we help these people?! The justice should be done by the judiciary the formation of which is one of our main goals.

- You draw a demarcation line between the proponents and opponents of current government and called on everybody to clearly determine their place. Where is the space of independent media?

- Objective media, who want changes, are on this side of line of demarcation. I observed televisions, as they create main climate and now I’ll speak about them. Imedi, Rustavi2 and Public Broadcaster are really across the line. I don’t exclude that my reaction to Maestro and Kavkasia was a bit exaggerated. I also want to express my respect to Ramaz Sakvarelidze. Independent media is as important to me as independent court. If there is not independent media, there will not be independent court and on the contrary, independent media is one of the cornerstones of democracy.

- However, being on this side of the demarcation line means being in opposition which is not journalist’s job. The main thing is honesty.

- I do not call on anybody to be in opposition. You might have misunderstood me or I expressed myself vaguely. I do not have a pretension to know everything and I might have used some terms wrongly. In the first place I want a journalist to show truth the way it is and the second this is a value part – distinguish what is good and what is bad and if both are bad to discern which is worse.

- I should have asked this earlier – why did you close down the channel ninths?

- We had a neutral position. You can ask journalists. There were different types of threats in the time of Shevardnadze. It seemed like they did not like something about Rustavi 2 which fulfilled its function very well. That is why we took the netural position and played the role of spare television. If Rustavi 2 faced threat then we would appear on the spotlight. My biggest mistake was that I did not dare to maintain the spare television as it would have implied like spying. My biggest guilt and mistake was the closing of this television.

- Russia has occupied big part of Georgian territory. These two countries have practically seized diplomatic ties. The attempts of current government to influence Russia by means of international community are unsuccessful. What is the content of your strategy? What is the perspective of restoring our territorial integrity?

- This is a very hard question. I understand that we do not have big choice. We had a broader perspective in time of Gamsakhurdia but they made mistakes. Then new mistakes followed during the time of Shevardnadze. Then the third President added more. We have less opportunity for maneuvering.

Small countries are always said to be under the sphere of influence of others, some name USA, others – Russia… We should find our place. Georgia is in the hard situation. Our goal is to restore the territorial integrity and maintain maximum freedom.

If I tell you that I have a concrete plan – how to return the lost territories and how to do this in the nearest future – I would be wrong. Economic crisis forced big countries to reconsider their relations. USA and Russia changed their relationship and it will change more like in case of Europe and Russia.

I know one thing for sure: if we do not have legitimate state and do not become interesting for Abkhazians and Ossetians, if the public is not united and strong, - we will not be productive. Internal situation impacts the external relationships. People are fleeing. Nobody wants to stay here. In these conditions, how can you assure Abkhazians to join us?

If the situation does not change, if they do not see that there really is a democracy and comfortable environmnent in Georgia it would be very hard to talk to them.

Russia is a separate topic. The only hope to contact Russia is that our interests coincide. The occupation of our country might be tiring for Russia as well. If Russia plans to improve relationships with the civilized world, the issues of Abkhazia and South Ossetia would be burden for them as well. Its opponents manage to use this issue very well and will constantly use it in future. Besides, this is dangerous for Russia as well. Caucasia is a complicated region and it is possible that the interests of Russia and Georgian coincide in this direction.

I have a faith that some day Abkhazia and South Ossetia will return to the united Georgia. This will definitely happen in my life. The first thing is that we should become the legitimate, democratic state, state attractive for Abkhazians and Ossetians; the second thing is the concurrence of interests with Russia; the third – useful international environment and stronger support from the democratic countries. The unity of these three components is the key of this problem.