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We Will Assist Abkhaz and Ossetian People not to Lose Chance to Be Part of Europe Together with Us

September 9, 2013
 
Nana Khidesheli, Interpresnews

Five years have passed since Russia recognized the independence of Abkhazia and so-called South Ossetia. How it did impact Abkhaz, Ossetian and Georgian people; what perspectives the new Georgian government proposed to Abkhaz and Ossetian people – these questions were asked to Paata Zakareishvili, the State Minister for Reintegration Issues. 

-Mr. Paata, on August 26, five years have passed after Russia recognized independence of Abkhazia and so-called South Ossetia. How did it impact Abkhaz, Ossetian and Georgian people?

-The August 8 had worse impact on Georgia than the August 26. The latter was a huge mistake for Russia due to its state interests. Having recognized the independence of Abkhazia and SO, in fact, it lost influence over the Caucasus. Russia has often demonstrated that it is taking wrong steps. The main problem is that its authorities rely on the violence and as soon as they have made violence-free political decisions, they have made mistakes. Russia gained a victory on the August 8 through violence because they had a large military armament and defeated the small Georgian army. However, when they had to make political decisions, Russia made a wrong decision – recognized the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Thereby, Russia freed Georgia from fears and obligations. Georgia had been expecting Russia to recognize or not recognize the independence of two regions with fear for many years. The Russian Duma used to adopt some resolutions and then the President used to decline it and Moscow permanently kept Georgia in tense conditions. Of course, after the 2008 armed conflict, this recognition was the worst fact for Georgia and nobody argues about it. Russia did not want Georgia to join NATO and Medvedev confessed that with the military operations they halted Georgia’s aspiration to NATO. Russia hindered it but Georgia acknowledged that it is not acceptable for us to stay in the environment where Russia is dominant. Georgia has become more stubborn on its way towards democratization, Georgian population was determined to change the government on October 1, which played with Russia. 

With this recognition, Russia lost its influence over Georgia to keep it within its space and finally it remained only with Abkhaz and Ossetian people, who also hate Russians. Simply, they were more afraid of Georgia. But if Georgia changes and gets more attractive for Abkhaz and Ossetians, Russian threat will become more obvious for them. On this ground, we should evaluate everything in dynamics. If we move towards democracy, NATO, if Georgia changes for better, we will become more attractive and interesting for them.

Abkhazia and South Ossetia has gained with this recognition more dependence on Russia. I have very good relations with Abkhaz and Ossetian societies. Before  becoming the state minister, I had closer relations with them. One senior Abkhaz official told me directly – before we were not recognized but were more independent; but now, we were recognized but do not have independence. It is very clear formula – Russian money, Russian justice, Russian language, Russian culture, everything is in Russian, not to say anything about army. We had paid it to Russia for our recognition. It is a disastrous outcome for them, because now they fully depend on Russia. Georgia’s development is a guarantee for them to make Russian recognition more ephemeral and senseless. We will exclude all risks to offer choice to Abkhaz and Ossetian people between death and live; but we will always give them chance to have choice between developed Georgia and Russia. It will require time and the needed time is 7-8 years; we all should be patient. 

-Do we need 7-8 years to gain territories back or to regulate our relationships?

-We will need 7-8 years to see that processes are going well. Maybe we will see it already in 4 years. Our tragedy is that we want to set deadlines for everything. The time is not the main point, taking right steps is the issue. Every step can give some result. One of our main problems is current shameful and immoral cohabitation, that Saakashvili estimated in the form of non-cooperation via vetoes and some other actions. The second issue is that Sochi Olympiad is approaching – so I speak about two things – Saakashvili’s factor and Olympiad’s factor, which hinder processes. As soon as we overcome these two factors and it will happen soon (Saakashvili will quit in October and Olympiad will finish in February, 2014), then we will have an open road. Meanwhile, the new government will be finally formed, there will be an absolute harmonization between executive - government and president. Consequently, we will have no more obstacles from March-April 2014. 

-Did the previous government have a chance to avoid these processes five years ago?

-It is doubtless that they had. It is a main problem for Saakashvili. That is why he always tries to speak about the party, which launched the war, although nobody cares about it. Unleashing of the military operations is the least problem in the set of negative policy that eventually led us to the armed conflict. So it is not important who first opened fire, whilst both parties were keen to start it. It is the fact that they could avoid it. When a car falls into the gap, an investigator starts investigation to estimate how the car lost direction. We had peaceful process before 2006. In July 2006, Saakashvili led armies into Kodori and froze the Georgian-Abkhaz contacts by it. In November 2006, Saakashvili created a temporary administration of South Ossetia and participated in the elections fixed by Kokoyti. With it, Saakashvili froze the Georgian-Ossetian relations. So, we should ask him why he did it. What was the benefit from it? The result is that – now we no longer control Kodori Gorge and Akhalgori district. Thus, we have many questions coming from Saakashvili’s actions. Saakashvili personally confessed that Russia had told him they did not care about Tskhinvali. He said it on December 12, 2007, when meeting with IDPs and promised that in several months they will return to Abkhazia. Eight months later the war started. Russia was pulled him to the war like a vacuum cleaner and they obeyed. It was not necessary to play a game according to Russian rules.

-How could we avoid it? What should we have done?

-We should not have believed Russia who claimed that they would give up Tskhinvali. He [Saakashvili] should have been more cautious, pragmatic as we are today and not fully in love with Russia. He was yielding everything – said “Putin is my ally”, “I looked into Putin’s eyes and saw this trust there” and similar things. He was repeating Bush’s words. He over-trusted Russia and believed Russia would give up Tskhinvali. Saakashvili should have played a Russian game. Russia saw that they were losing Abkhazia and so, Georgia was moving forward and it was clear that we were approaching NATO. Russia was afraid of it and took advantage of Saakashvili’s weakness. His weakness was his desire to do everything fast. We could avoid all these, but, unfortunately, we were impatient together with Saakashvili and believed that we could resolve problems in one or two years. That was impossible.

-Are there any positive changes with regard to relations with Abkhaz and Ossetian people after the new government came into office in Georgia?

-Of course, there are. I can tell you that aggressive rhetoric has finished, first of all, from our side, and neither they reply to us in the same manner. They became kind of repliers. For example, Saakashvili was saying they were cannibals, made racist statements several times and said Abkhaz people were descendants of Mongoloid race. He always insulted them and, of course, we used to receive adequate replies from them. I can state that since October, 2012, I do not remember any anti-Ivanishvili statement of Abkhaz or Ossetian parties. They clearly expect something positive from us and do not equalize all other Georgians with Saakashvili. So-called terrorist, suspicious actions were eradicated close to the administrative border lines. Of course, unpleasant facts still occur – people are kidnapped, oppose each other but we resolve it without any PR. We carried out 4-5 serious operations together with Abkhaz and Ossetian people so that nobody had learned about it. They acknowledge and value it. They see that we do not use our current problems against them. The situation has significantly changed and we have left confrontation and go towards cooperation.

-Russian authorities still state that they are not going to change their position with regard to Abkhazia and SO. How does the new government of Georgia intend to normalize relations with Russia?

-We should not be afraid of statements. We can also make statements. We also said that we are not going to change our positions. If you are a politician and professional, you should realize who loses with it. With the statement that Russia is not going to change position, they make Georgia more distant. We are not saying that since Russia is not going to change positions, we should cooperate now. No. We say that we are not changing our positions either. We condemn activities of Russian embassies in Sokhumi and Tskhinvali. Until they have embassies in Tskhinvali and Sokhumi, it is excluded that we will restore diplomatic relations with Russia. Thus, we will cooperate with Russia but not in this direction. It is a very serious topic. When you have only one neighbor – Georgia with the most difficult region – the Caucasus, and you have no diplomatic relations with it, they should realize that they lose much more with the absence of diplomatic relations. I, as a specialist, can bravely tell you that Russia loses more. Georgia loses that our citizens face problems because of visa regime with Russia. Russia is losing its geopolitical influences. Georgia is a lock of the Caucasus and if this lock does not have positive feelings about you, Russia is damaged with it. We have ports, all ways go via our territory; oil and gas pipe-lines are running via our territory as well as all communication, and strategic infrastructure. Consequently, Russia has to choose. We should not open Russia’s wounds, we should not put salt on their wounds and keep on cooperation-position. We shall tell them – we are ready to cooperate with you, I am curious about your steps with regard to Abkhazia and SO; show me this dynamic and positive.

-Russia claims it intends to continue cooperation with Abkhazia and South Ossetia on equal levels.

-It claims but we speak about action. One point is speaking about something and second is the action. Speech is a part of politics but only speaking cannot be politics. Action is politics. So, we should not be afraid of their speech. We also can speak. We should not be afraid of Putin and Medvedev’s statements. The main issue is what they will do. The dynamic has already started. Georgian products have already appeared on Russian market; many positive steps are taken; there are no signs of stagnation. Let us wait. Since the process is ongoing, we should not worry. Today we feel that Russian-Georgian relations are speeding up. So, we should not be afraid of statements. We also have made statements and so we feel secure on the level of statements. If Putin states one thing, we can reply to him with ten statements. We should attract attention to see difference between statements and action.

-De-facto foreign minister of SO Davit Sanakoev said they are negotiating with several countries to gain their recognition. He noted that Georgian diplomats create obstacles for them in this process. Do you have information with which countries they are negotiating and if they have chance in it?

-We have information. I will not name states; it is prerogative of the Georgian Foreign Ministry and, moreover, we cooperate with those countries. It is a fact that during Mikheil Saakashvili’s governance, six states recognized independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. After we came into office, one state retrieves its recognition. The dynamic is positive and the new government is acting more reasonably. I cannot bravely tell Ossetian and Abkhaz people that we will eradicate all problems of launching a war but we will diplomatically struggle till the end. They know it. It is a choice between death and life; it is a choice between Europe and Russia, and we are not destroying their chances to be in Europe together with us. Our diplomatic war will continue till victory. We have clear support from democratic world. They have support from Russia, Venezuela, Nicaragua… they should decide where they prefer to stay – in democratic world or in the club of the afore-listed countries. We will continue our struggle and it will be successful victory of our diplomatic war.

-I would like to ask you about the Geneva negotiations. What should be done to make this format more fruitful?

-This format was created during Saakashvili’s government. It might not be an ideal but is the only format which is more or less responsible to resolve the Georgian-Russian conflict. So, we should continue in these negotiations in this format that was created. We are not going to change this format and believe that if something can be done, we should achieve it in this format. This format resembles a mirror. When a person looks in the mirror, he sees himself. This format reflects the reality in the Georgian-Russian relations. So, I think we should do our best to take the Georgian-Russian relations out of crisis or see that it is getting out of this crisis. I believe we have not exhausted all resources of this format. We should keep in mind Saakashvili’s presence and Sochi Olympiad. We should get rid of many external artificial factors to see clear relations. In order to get pure picture, we should get rid of everything artificial and temporary. Saakashvili and Sochi Olympiad are temporary and artificial factors. Both will go soon. The new reality might not be perfect but it will be real and give us a new chance to plan new strategy calmly, without emotions and then start its implementation.

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