Nodar Sarjveladze – After Revolutions There Always Are People Like Tutberidze Because TheyRevolution Empowers them to Attack Fundamental Values

Koba Bendeliani

Interpressnews interviewed psychologist Nodar Sarjveladze about the results of the social survey of the US International Democratic Institution [the “IRI] about the role of the church in Georgian society and the political reasons for the controversy in the society regarding the church. the interview also inquired whether Russia has really found a political  ally in Georgia in the church, whether it is possible to predict that the Orthodox church and common religion with Russia will change the foreign policy of our country.

-Mr. Nodar, the social survey carried out by the IRI caused serious resonance and dissatisfaction among political circles. Do you trust the results and how reliable do you consider them?

-I trust them and I should say that it is a very serious institution. They use modern standards while carrying out the survey. I was not surprised that the government kept its rating according to their researches. Not because the government is good, and does not make mistakes etc, but because the strategy of opposition parties was not good. So, I think the opposition could not gain much at this stage and they failed to reduce the rating of our president.

The slogan – Misha, Go!--was opposing the slogan of the pro-government movements Misha Is The Best! But it did not work. Although the idea of both slogans was controversial, their authors became odious, but Misha did not go and furthermore the president still has increased his power. It is a law of physics: action causes reflective action. Both slogans - Misha is the best! and Misha, Go! Helped the president to keep his position.

-Mr. Nodar, it is a fact that people turned back to the church, but what do you think-- how actual is religion in Georgia? How much Georgian identity is connected to orthodoxy?

-People started to turn back to the church in the 1980s and it is positive fact, because it means people turn to their roots. On the other hand, there is other tendency – if you turn back to your roots, why are you fleeing from your country? Why do you rob, destroy and squander it? The controversy between these facts shows that we turned back to the church superficially-- that means that we just baptize and attend religious services. I cannot say that people became very religious and they changed their general view. When people pass by churches they cross themselves, but it is only a custom, and not religion.

As for the connection between Georgian identity and orthodox religion, it is deep because the Christian and orthodox religion really identifies the identity of the nations like the Russians, Ukrainians and Serbs. The former president of Serbia Miloseevich was appealing concerning the orthodoxy of Serbia but we all remember how he finished his activities. Of course our identity is connected with orthodoxy and it is good that it is so since it is a centuries-long tradition. But now we live in a changing world and it is not realistic to rely on these traditions only. Even Sulkhan-Saba Orbeliani was speaking about this when he converted to the Catholic Church. I do not say that people should change religion but the tenet that a person born in an Orthodox family must be Orthodox all his life, is doubtful. Religion like many other values depends on personal choice. Identity is defined historically, but I repeat once more our faith is relied on by our personal choice.

On the other hand, Georgian identity is not connected only with Orthodoxy. The population of the Adjara Autonomous republic was Orthodox but part of them is Muslim now. We have Catholic Georgians. They are a minority but minority or majority does not make any difference in respect of identity. The identity of the majority does not mean that the identity of the minority must be subdued.

I think Georgian identity is mostly linked with the language. The formula – Language, Homeland and Faith- is very important in its consequence. Ilia Chavchavadzde did not promote the importance only of the language while creating this formula. People from Adjara converted into the Muslim religion but did not lose their language. The case of Greek people from Greece is controversial; they maintained the Orthodox religion but speak in the Turkish language. Different nations have different attitudes toward identity. Apparently, Georgian people have more links with the language. It is natural that Georgian identity is connected with Orthodox religion but I think our identity is mostly linked to the language. The philosopher Heidegger said “shelter of our existence is the language”. Another philosopher Wittgenstein said “boundaries of my existence are boundaries of my language.” Consequently, the language is more connected with the national identity.

-It is difficult to assess the incident about Tutberidze to be an ordinary fact of freedom of expression. It is doubtless that this controversy had a political character...

-As for the attitude of the Georgian people to the Patriarch, it is natural because his holiness really deserves it not because he is the holy leader of the country but because  he is a very respectful person. However, the general feeling of respect carries a solemn character. The wish of the population to see the Patriarch in politics demonstrates that people mix up church and politics.

I think, Tutberidze and members of the “Kmara” movement and the Liberty Institute are radicals. They burned stuffed judges. Although Tutberidze did not participate in it she is their colleague and shares their opinion. I mean, these people can commit symbolic murder for reforms. When you burn the stuffed person that means you liquidate him. These people and radical politicians have a similar spirit. They are similar to Robespierre and Marat who killed the right wing members. Of course today these people do not commit such crimes but they have similar spirit.

I do not consider Tutberidze’s video-recording to be a serious one and all this rigmarole about it is trivial. It is an attempt to reduce the influence of the Patriarch which is huge in this society. Their action is similar to murder. People, similar to Ivan Karamazov and Palve Morozov, who killed their fathers, can do it. It is not strange because our society is very controversial. We cannot change it because the society needs such people too in order to wake up the rest. All this demonstrates how dangerous the revolution is--let it be Rose or Cactus. People like Tutberidze always follow the Revolution because their purpose is to destroy fundamental values.

-How grounded are the accusations about the Orthodox Church as if church members are the ally of the Russian Federation in Georgia; and the claiming that among church members there are many former members of the unofficial armed formation “Mkhedrioni” and former agents of KGB?

-To tell the truth I am not competent in this field. I do not know the statistics about how many former members of the “Mkhedrioni” are among clergymen. But I have the opinion that in 2008 Russia occupied Georgian territories and the first person who condemned it in Russia was Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Aleksi II. He refused to recognize the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The Russian Church had an anti-occupation position. It is a very important point to demonstrate what the potential of the connection between the confessions is. As for the accusation about the Georgian church being the ally of Russia in our country, Russia has agents in Georgia like the USA and other countries. However, I doubt members of the Orthodox Church work for them. The Church works with people and has a very good connection with its parish. They not only teach people religion but also assist them; clergymen are very well integrated with people and are involved in agriculture too. Maybe somebody is laundering his dirty money by constructing churches but we should not forget that the devil is everywhere and our church cannot be an exception. It is a question whether it is problem of the church or of the society? Just like every family might have an ugly child.

-Is it possible to change the foreign policy of Georgia because of Orthodoxy and a common religion with Russia?

-I cannot say that it is the basis for changing the foreign policy but it might be one of the factors. I am sure it might happen.

The principle strategy of conflict resolution of the world is only in one direction – search for common interests and rely on them during negotiations. Russian and Georgian people have much in common in their religion. Why should we refuse to take advantage of it? I do not say that it is the most important factor but anyway it might work.

It is difficult for me to speak about foreign policy because I am not a specialist of the field. But I think peace and development starts not from foreign policy but from inner policy. I mean, we should be right with ourselves first of all. You should build your policy based on your national and state interests but a concrete citizen of your country must be the object of your care. The state must exist for the citizen and not vice versa. It would be better if our policy changes in this direction.

When we speak about institutionalization it means it is a source for the improvement of the welfare of people. Thus, I think unless values are central in the country – person and his welfare – we will remain in the same situation. Level of fragmentation will be either higher or lighter. It is fact that that we have lost territories and territorial integrity is losing its urgency gradually. We do not have to gain the territories back but the people who live there. We should change from the territorial factor to the human factor. In that case, a different policy will be important. And it requires radical changes. We should change our mentality and our political will too. In that case, citizens will also change their thinking too.

Unfortunately, most politicians are populists; among them is our government. The government uses the poor philosophy of the society. Poverty is not a material problem in our country; people are the victims of poor opinions. It results in worshiping the state. The West has subdued the dilemma of understanding that the state is not the most important. Person is the most important in the countries where the citizen is recognized to be the biggest value. Until we change our thinking in this direction, we will join neither the EU nor other alliances. They speak much about democracy, it is necessary for a person. Our government sees people as voters and nothing more. Thus, the government creates a dehumanized society where there is no place for a person. Thus, the level of migration is high in our country. But there is a question: do we have right to speak about territorial integrity when Georgians flee from Georgia?

Source: Interpressnews